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This is to stir the pot and hopefully bring out some more activity in this here tribe. too many experienced martial artists here for there to be this little activity...
okay, I just ran across an OOOLLD (2000) article in another MA website that stemmed from the debate regarding chi, its existance and its use as an offensive martial force. The pragmatists will say that it doesnt exist because there is not enough quantifiable proof, and even if it DOES exist its not worth the effort to train because it doesnt have the pay out (in timeliness of training) that "realistic" training has. The Internalists disagree, for various reasons, usually stemming from personal experience(s). So, Ive included what links I could find from that "conflict" (there was an article recoring the outcome of a test, a rebuttal that was asked to me removed and I can no longer find and a response to the rebuttal, which is still available), and lets hear it. Yes? no? why?
www.uechi-ryu.com/an_empty_force.htm
uechi-ryu.com/response_to...rce_test.htm
okay, I just ran across an OOOLLD (2000) article in another MA website that stemmed from the debate regarding chi, its existance and its use as an offensive martial force. The pragmatists will say that it doesnt exist because there is not enough quantifiable proof, and even if it DOES exist its not worth the effort to train because it doesnt have the pay out (in timeliness of training) that "realistic" training has. The Internalists disagree, for various reasons, usually stemming from personal experience(s). So, Ive included what links I could find from that "conflict" (there was an article recoring the outcome of a test, a rebuttal that was asked to me removed and I can no longer find and a response to the rebuttal, which is still available), and lets hear it. Yes? no? why?
www.uechi-ryu.com/an_empty_force.htm
uechi-ryu.com/response_to...rce_test.htm
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SF Bay Area
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Re: Stirring the pot
Tue, October 2, 2007 - 10:54 PMdim-mak works at two levels. Firstly we have the level that can be equated to the very basic acupuncturist, the person who simply puts a needle into someone and walks away, returning some minutes later to remove the needles. Then we have the higher level acupuncturist who is able to use the needles as a conductor for their own energy, to put healing energy into the point to heal at the highest level. It is the same for T'ai chi self defence instructors. At the very basic level we have the dim-mak person who has learnt a few points that work and proceeds to strike at those points causing some damage. Then we have the person who is at the higher level able to put adverse energy into those points by using some simple body movements or "dim-mak shakes". Erle Montague to reach this latter level of ability requires higher Qi-gong (chi-gong) proficiency. -
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Re: Stirring the pot
Tue, October 2, 2007 - 11:09 PMSo I take it that you are convinced of the powers of qi? why? what provd its existance/ability to you? -
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Re: Stirring the pot
Tue, October 2, 2007 - 11:57 PMmany things mostly personal experience as well as some good documentaries. One Qi-gong master was able to raise the temperature of a damp cloth from 65 degrees to 160 by just clutching it in his hand and concentrating on it for a few seconds this was proven through the use of infrared cameras even though before this test western scientists would have said it impossible. Also western medicine can't prove how acupuncture works but statistics (which is the basis for western science) says it works so it has been accepted as a viable healing art by modern doctors and has it's entire method bent around the principal that chi exists. So if it does work then the science behind it must be at least somewhat correct We also know that people and other living things have a magnetic field and it's not possible to generate one without some form of electrical current or charge. We also know that bio-electrical current must have a positive and negative flow like all electrical currents. ...I want to go on but have run out of time =( I am off to catch my train!! ..Looking forward to the rest of the tribes input. -
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Re: Stirring the pot
Wed, October 3, 2007 - 7:15 AMOne question though, Like Ben's article stated, is it worth the time and energy to try to apply it to self protection. It's awesome to be able to control your body and environment using chi etc, and I'm sure the journey you take to learn and understand these things must be very enlightening, but I really think these are some of the reasons a lot of martial artists end up maimed or killed when they encounter violence because somewhere along the way the lost focus of why they started martial arts.
Noone ever started learning self defence because they wanted to learn about energy flow etc but it happened to be a great bonus along the journey, They most likely got mugged or tired of being advantaged or simply saw the news and said they don't ever want to be a victim.
Until the day when someone can teach me to use my chi instantly, reliably and consistantly at a distance kinna like a firearm I'll have to choose good old fashoined energy (I'm talking about potential and kenitic energy) combinded with targeting and a baseball bat.
Also lets say learning to control your chi really improves your strikes and does infact add an extra BANG! for your buck, do I really need it? A broken rib that bruises the liver or spleen is gonna feel objectivly the same to the man whether it was caused with kenetic energy or any other type of energy.
Till next time
-KAS
"It is far more difficult to be simple than to be complicated; far more difficult to sacrifice skill and easy execution in the proper place, than to expand both indiscriminately."
- John Ruskin (1819-1900) -
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Re: Stirring the pot
Wed, October 3, 2007 - 2:18 PMI have seen practitioners of arts like Pau Kua who couldnt have weighed more than 110 lbs through giant men across the room with the power of their qi. It wasnt because they were so strong or somehow cultivated super human strength (Maybe a slight strength edge from qi training). The reason the people went flying across the room is because a shock was delivered to the nervous system causing them to lose their posture resulting in a sudden tension followed by complete lack of muscle control. Without the ability to control their muscles, their strength counted for very little and they went flying.
A major part of this is just understanding anatomy of the nervous system in addition to knowing the bones and muscles. Another part is the "intention" and the subtle nuances of how the attack was delivered. -
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Re: Stirring the pot
Wed, October 3, 2007 - 2:56 PMi think:
it is not really possible to completely seperate internal and external
if you have the chi supply big enough to zap it into some vital points at will, you still need the physical dexterity and speed (external) to be able to use it-- ie execute the technique properly.
and how do most people build up this energy in the first place?
by standing in postures (external) and using breathing (internal).
i think it is completely possible to build up that amount of chi just by sitting in a meditative posture and doing breathing exercises (whatever you want to call them-- pranayama, quiescient breathing, etc...
but to be able to use them in a martial capacity, youd need to be sprending time in horse stance, or some other stance.
and then practicing applications, partner drills, etc.
so even this advanced skill of "internal" energy is based on continuous, dedicated practice of both external stuff and internal stuff.
also, it probably takes a while to build up the chi to do this, so if you're growing up in a violent neighborhood, you might want to practice some simple, yet brutal techniques to pass the time -- and survive-- until you have spent the necessary years practicing to have enough chi to zap it into people.
at which time, you would still be using the 'basic' skills of body positioning, movement ,etc., that you used all along, but you just added this new skill of 'zapping'.
i like to think that all the energy stuff was discovered by accident, some guy just standing in horse stance all day until once he just realized he could shoot energy from his body...!!
and even more interestingly, he-- or she-- probably discovered this energy and ability to use it in meditation, while he was sitting still...
which is maybe why it is easier to train that inner force while moving slowly, cause its easier to feel that elusive chi while moving slowly...
anyone agree?? disagree?? -
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Re: Stirring the pot
Wed, October 3, 2007 - 6:13 PMA fellow Uechi-ka of mine, when I mentioned this thread, had mentioned to me that the "internal" arts generally were developed to a martial capacity in regions of China that were relatively remote where they had the time and opportunity to train for many years to develop such skills. Versus, the more urbanized regions where conflicts were much more common and student/practitioners did not have the luxury of taking their sweet time to deelop effective techniques. I have not yet had the opportnity to research this, though my source is reliable in his knowledge of martial history. If its true, I agree with you to that end Gary.
However....your argument is predicated on the existance of such a force and that is possible to be developed and nourished, overa length of time. My question returns, How do you know? what proof have you seen? and is it even WORTH the extra time and effort?
Just to play the other side of the coin, Im reading Barefoot Zen, where author Nathan Johnson, posits thatKungfu , and subsequent martial arts by extension, were never intended as Martial in nature, rather, these exercises were intended as a physical exercise for monks in which they would have another avenue to experience Zen and pursue enlightenment. The entire idea is built around the energy concept. food for thought.
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Re: Stirring the pot
Wed, October 3, 2007 - 6:03 PMSentience... I would say that if your example of a 110 pound man throwing "giant" men across the room involves the "wee" man making physical (external) contact, then the result was likely caused by means for more external the cultivated chi. I am no small man (250 lbs+/-) and have been "thrown" by 75 year old Okinawans of a similar (110 lbs soaking) using techniques that outwardly, dont appear to be throws. Likewise, myself and 3 others of a build similar to my own we unable to uproot the same small man when trying to pick him up collectively. This particular phenomenon can be attributed to a natural force that MANY western martial artists take for granted and completely forget, center of gravity. By mastering your own c.o.g. and understanding how it manifests in others, it takes very little effort to dump an opponent ass over tea kettle without every touching a vital nerve center, conversely you can make it incredibly difficult to be budged yourself if you dont want to be. Couple this WITH a shocking strike to the central nervous system and you have a technique that is probably tantamount to overkill.
My opinion is, qi or no qi, nerve strikes are "killing" blows that generally finish a fight with a single strike, and if you are executing one to an end OTHER than stopping the conflict RIGHT now, then you are complicating matters. just my opinion.
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Re: Stirring the pot
Wed, October 3, 2007 - 6:17 PMI LOVE that you were able to throw in the infrared and psuedo science backups to qi Jason. I cant remember when I saw it, I saw something as well where they were able to show some evidence in infrared. the Bioelctrical concept fits, but we know so little about what we are able to do with it, that I dont think we can really go to that as suppostive evidence... yet. -
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Re: Stirring the pot
Wed, October 3, 2007 - 7:04 PM"Give me a place to stand and with a lever I will move the whole world."
----Archimedes
Dont be so easily fooled by 100lb guys trowing around much larger guys claiming that it had something to do with magical forces.
If you use the proper leverage you can move anything, and throws and joint breaks are nothing more than leverages; Add in an objective injury in the man as well and you can preety much do anything to his skeleton and he'd have no say in the matter, no matter how big and scary he is.
Which brings me to the guys that practice things like having the students trying to move them etc. what good is that to me in violence? Tell you what next time you encounter somone telling you that there is no way you can make them move, step in kick them in the groin then with one hand push on their hip then call the paramedics. -
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Re: Stirring the pot
Wed, October 3, 2007 - 7:14 PM"Which brings me to the guys that practice things like having the students trying to move them etc. what good is that to me in violence? "
As a teaching aid it shows the power of center of gravity. what happens if your centers sucks out loud and you take a grazing blow to the shoulder or hip and you get blasted to the floor? this type of training helps to instill the importance of balance and center. If I blow a defiensive technique, I would like to know that I am still in the fight and notblown to much weaker position where I have to fight to get back into the fight. has nothing to do with energy and everything to do with preparedness and tactical safeties. -
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Re: Stirring the pot
Thu, October 4, 2007 - 11:10 PMWhat I experienced was more than center of gravity, though it was probably less than magick. This wasnt an aikido like movement, and there were no juijutsu leverage moves involved. He threw me across the room with his finger tips striking me in the chest, and I temporarily felt immobilized.
Im not sure I can prove exactly what was behind such a technique, but it was sure cool. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Stirring the pot
Fri, October 5, 2007 - 10:00 PMWhat you experienced was Dim Mak. My Sifu is able to tap area's of the arm and cause temporary paralysis in the legs this is just one example. This is a much higher level of chi manipulation than just killing someone by heavily striking vital points. This kind of Dim Mak is true Dim Mak, The ability to manipulate an opponents energy so thoroughly that one no longer even needs to kill. instead you can cause things like heat stroke or bowel movements just to name a few. Many things an accupuncturist can treat can also be inflicted by a master of Dim Mak (all the highest levels of virtually all Chinese MA have some form of Dim Mak -
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Re: Stirring the pot
Fri, October 5, 2007 - 11:19 PMThis time next year I will be in school to study acupuncture and Chinese medicine. Ive already got my Anatomy and Physiology out of the way.
Dim Mak seems like a logical thing for me to study once I learn the meridians.
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Re: Stirring the pot
Sun, October 7, 2007 - 10:02 AMso you can make someone s*^t themself with a few well placed fingertip strikes and a whole bunch of years of chi cultivation..
i must say.. that's not only awesome, it's also funny!!
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Re: Stirring the pot
Sun, October 7, 2007 - 7:29 PMI'm still waiting for any of them to claim the million-dollar prize from James Randi Foundaion :P
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Re: Stirring the pot
Sun, October 7, 2007 - 10:14 PMI have been doing internal MA for about 8 years and have learnt some valuable skills that have translated into other combat and fighting fields. However, I think most claims about chi are bullshit and reify what is actually a simple idea that can be helpful to acquire physical attributes - these attributes do not need the conceptual and heuristic tool that the notion or idea chi represents for the internal martial arts.
I have trained with Erle Montaigue and two of his oldest and well respected teachers. Whilst I value what I learnt from them I do not believe 10% of what they claim about their skills and art - because I have never seen it nor has anyone I know seen it.
However, I have trained with other 'masters' from China who do not make exagerated claims about chi. Rather, for them it hardly seems to factor into their training and fighting unless some dude asks them about it and then they make some theoretical statement that is divorced from the 'nuts and bolts' of their practice.
The term chi encompasses so many things. However, in the context of internal martial arts Chi and the associated terms and ideas (such as jing and fung sung) provide a set of ideas that help people to learn an array of different physical attributes - sensitivity, groundedness, explosiveness, etc. etc. I think that this conceptual framework provides one of the few ways to teach attributes to nearly anyone. My experience in boxing showed me that many good boxers have these skills but they learnt by trial and error - hours of hitting the bag and sparring. Yet most do not learnt these attributes and they even lack the vocabulary to identify them let alone teach them.
All of this shit about whole body vs. segmented body comes from people who have little experience with a range of fighters. All of our bodies work within pretty much the same biomechanical constraints. Internal martial arts have developed a way to talk about and teach different ways to 'make' power - different body dynamics and skills that power strikes etc. Bagua and Hsing I concentrate on different specialities (but are not limited to) both tactically and mechanically - as do karate and western boxing.
After 8 years of internal MA I did a year of Pilates and research on kinematic chains, structural and body dynamic training and realised that my Tai Chi and Bagua have taught me to use my body effectively. However, deadlifts and kettlebell training have helped me to learn this too. More to the point, boxing taught me more about manifesting power through whole body power than any of the internal gurus I have met.
The big difference between my MMA experience and my internal training is that the MMA training has given me skills that work under the pressure of combat.
A brief comment about dim mak: it is a waste of time! There is no way that I would try and hit some dude in 'Stomach 9' in a fight when I can clip him on the jaw or smash his nose. Hitting a Dim Mak point is like trying to throw a straw into a spinning bottle - even if you get it there are no guarantees. Punching a guy in the head is difficult enough if he is moving and trying to hit you. A good square hit is not easy, but it is even harder if you are aiming for a spot the size of a small coin, tucked under someones chin. Muscle grabs and nerve strikes hurt, but I would not swap it for a choke, head butt, or punch to the face any day. These strikes might work but only under exceptional circumstances.
If I punch you in the head and you go home and die the next day because of a concussion, is that a death strike?
If I break your rib and it punctures your lung and you are too proud to take advantage of modern medicine and then die a few days later, is that Dim Mak?
If I punch you in the throat and it seals your wind pipe long enough for you to pass out...? -
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Re: Stirring the pot
Mon, October 8, 2007 - 8:02 PMAnother thing about chi. It is more than just body dynamics it is timing and having a good 'eye' - knowing which direction to push or pull, how to use space to put someone of balance. I have trained with some internal guys that are excellent at this, they always find those awkward spots to strike you or puch you so that you feel clumsy and bumbling. You only get a good 'eye' and sensitivity for others bosy dynamics by doing two person drills. And you only learn how to do these in practice, with a person who isn't colluding with you, through sparring type drills under ever increasing pressure.
It is funny, but in my experience the best internal martial artists are those that don't put too much credence in chi myths and fantasies. It is the chi magicians that put their hope and belief in mystical powers that have never impressed my. And believe me I want to be impressed. Moreover, I have never heard a believable story about mystical chi power that can not also be exhibited by another non internal MA.
I could rant for hours about this stuff -
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Re: Stirring the pot
Mon, October 8, 2007 - 8:31 PMI do agree that the chi aspect of kungfu is only one of the many things that need to be developed to most technechs. And yes alot can be learned without the chi aspect
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Re: Stirring the pot
Mon, October 8, 2007 - 8:29 PMhehe, yes to some degree striking a vital area to cause death or worse is dim-mak but a good Dim-mak practitioner knows what will likely occur with a given strike but, your claim to not have any skills from internal MA after 8 yrs could mean one of these things: your lack of faith in "chi" or your aggressive outlook has perhaps retarded your ability to do advanced chi-gong. You probably lack the patience to practice standing still for an hour or more a day preferring more active exercises that give fast results. Or you probably don't have a teacher who is giving you all the proper training methods to manifest your internal MA combatively. Or your 8yrs of experience in Internal MA probably only consists of a form here and there and an occasional seminar which anyone here can tell you will not gain you any skill to speak of.
The world is full of people who have tried a year or two of some kungfu here and there mixed with some other styles of MAs that give faster results and these people often go on to talk crap about something they know little about. Kungfu takes time Kungfu literally translates as Time and energy it would be like someone taking 3 months in western boxing and then saying they are an expert. True Kungfu Skills are transmitted after years of constant study in one style. The main reason for this is because the prerequisite for obtaining these skill are within the first 3+ yrs of curriculum it take many students yrs to become comfortable with some of the basic movements of kungfu. Do not belittle an are that you have not the patience to master. If I am wrong about your skill in chinese MAs then tell me how many of the 72 "skills" have you obtained expertise in?? -
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Re: Stirring the pot
Mon, October 8, 2007 - 10:51 PMI can't tell you how 'good' at internal MA I am.
I can tell you that I had a black belt in another martial art before starting Bagua and Tai Chi, about another 8 years. I came to internal MA because whilst travelling I lost a lot of my conditioning and felt vulnerable and realised that much of my MA skill was based on my athleticism. So I started doing tai chi and Bagua, throwing myself into it. As a former elite level gymnast I have a work ethic that would put most people to shame. I took Erle and his mob seriously and did my qi gong and forms three time a day - I have done the basics for 8 years. I did not learn the ever increasing number of forms that Erle invented to keep sell videos. I also know that the heart of internal MA is the basics. I was not interested in learning 'techniques', but I wanted what made internal MA unique, the diverse ways to manifest power that are not based on physical conditioning in the dualistic western sense - I want to be 80 years old still have skills that can keep me alive.
But you know what? I have noticed a terrible work ethic in much of internal MA. As a former athlete Isaw these skinny nerds and fat guys talk about chi and learn more and more forms but never to the hard yards. You know why? I reckon it is because people are hoping for miracles in IMA. But I find it harder to do qigong for 30 minutes three times a day than go five rounds in the ring. But I have heard numerous 'old school' internal MA instructors bemoan about the weak work ethic of their students and how they don't know how to fight. These are Martial Arts - for fighting. Fighting is hard work. The old school guys were hard bastards - look at how Bagua got its reputation, as a street combat art that worked. They weren't intellectuals talking shit. They were bodyguards that kicked ass for a living.
Another thing. When I was told by a 'master' from china that I had obtained impressive power but it was 'obvious power' and not 'subtle power' (I was relying on a translater so who knows what he actually said) I thought, cool, that is fine with me.
Now lets cut the over-theorised talk, what did I learn from internal MA that makes me still train in it: I can hit harder than most people my weight and it isn't because I am a strong bastard; I have relatively good 'short power', exhibiting quite a lot of force from a small or no distance; I am pretty well grounded - wouldn't want to be in a clinch with a good judoka for long, but I can hold my own better than most; my BJJ experience and boxing experience have both shown me that the sensitivity training I have done has had positive results - jam, deflecting, trapping and stop hitting.
Now I didn't count 72, did you? But if we wanted to be wankers about this we could dissect these skills further in different attributes. But the most important skill I have is avoiding getting hit and making hits - I learnt this in the ring and sparring. I have done enough 'sticky hands gone bad' (some kid of pseudo fight that have some weird rules that suit the guy I am training with) to know that if you can exhibit 70 of your 72 skill and not avoid gettin hit by me, nor get a decent hit on me, then I will win the fight. Moreover, if I am out of my league in striking I am going to maintain distance and wait until you gas - because if you have no fight experience the emotional and physical drain of the fist 30 seconds will fuck you up and then I punch you silly or just run away. -
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Re: Stirring the pot
Mon, October 8, 2007 - 11:11 PMYou know what bugs me?
When you spar, fight or even do a drill with a martial artist of any kind and they get their ass kicked and then say something like "but you weren't relaxed" or "you didn't use your chi."
Or when they say, "yeah but I had hit you in stomach 9 then you would shit yourself and implode and that take down wouldn't have worked."
What I love about boxers and other fighters that test it under a kind of pressure is that they don't make excuses. There is no place to hide behind talk. -
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Re: Stirring the pot
Mon, October 8, 2007 - 11:39 PMIm more into Ninpo and Aikijuijutsu type styles myself. I definitely dont neglect leverage and physical technique. Dim Mak and ki for me are just supplements to a well balanced fighting style, not replacements for it.
I have seen Paua Kua and Tai Chi applied in combat though, and some people can and do pull it off and use it to attain physical victory. On the other hand, there seem to be more people who end up not getting it when it comes to the soft arts, while the karate schools produce a higher turnout of mediocre fighters and a once in a while a few masters.
I think some styles of Thai Chi are better for combat than others. A lot of them are just Chi Gong with combat postures. A rare few teachers will teach you how to kick ass with it. I never got that into it, but I did have an girlfriend who studied combat tai chi and kicked my ass with it.
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Re: Stirring the pot
Wed, October 10, 2007 - 12:19 AMmake no doubt that Kungfu is hard work not just intensity in training but in the duration one must train properly before actual combat skill starts to manifest. Anyone can take boxing or kickboxing and greatly increase there fighting skill in just a year. While in other arts like taichi and Shaolin take years just to make natural the movements needed to take advantage of obscure angles of attack and ways of generating power.
If we (kungfu practitioners) start sparing on day 1 like a boxer sure we could gain a mediocre level of martial power fairly fast but as we do this we will also gain handicaps (to tense from being hit, lowering our head to be protected by the hands covering the face ect). It is really hard to get rid of these handicaps once they become subconscious and can inhibit good kungfu because when put under pressure or stress we revert back to these methods. Boxing is not an art made to fight multiple opponents on the battlefield. We need to learn to move our body in ways that can evade from one direction while simultaneously striking another direction. this comes from building blocks of training over time and yes if you don't have the time or patience don't bother because your skills will be sub-par at best and you will be just another of the many misrepresenting Chinese MA as inferior.. -
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Re: Stirring the pot
Wed, October 10, 2007 - 5:17 AMSo Like the post asked.... is it worth the time and effort to implement chi into self defence? I mean if your goal is to shut the other man off like a machine, then you certainly don't need to study chi to do that, a simple claw hammer to the head would do just fine, if you want to make the guy vomit on himself you also don't need chi for that you only need to rupture his ear drum causing vertigo in the man.
Why do we try to further complicate MAand self defence for the sake of keeping students longer in the school? -
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Re: Stirring the pot
Wed, October 10, 2007 - 7:42 PMFirst of all, no one said chinese martial arts are inferior.
I do think that when you hit a plateau with your skills you need to try new things. Just like pro-athletes have started doing pilates or integrating other cross training to add an edge. Same with my MA. There is a limit to how much time I can spend sparring or conditioning and find other types of training helpful. Even just doing sensitivity drills would help improve your game.
But I think the important thing to remember is that MA training is just about fighting efficiency. MA has become a relatively autonomus social field for me, a body of knowledge that I love to be involved in 'for its own sake.' If I did MA purely for self-protection I would carry a weapon and be training completely differently. As it is I just enjoy taking part in this as an activity, hobby or obsession.
In short, depending on who you are and why you are training, it can be worth your while 'overcomplicating.' When it comes down to it, it is more complicated to try and use western scientific biomechanical theories to explain body dynamics and improve performance than to use the conceptual framework of internal MA. As I said before, chi is one of a few notions that I believe operate as a practical metaphor - symbolising and encompassing many complicated physcial and physcological attributes into a workable idea that you are taught to feel - not think about in an intellectualised way. Rather, this metaphor is a form of practical logic that can be utilised in the urgency of combat, apprehended as a feeling or sense. This is easier to do than to think through the kinematic chains, muscular skeletal alignment, grounding and other miriad of cues that we need to learn to see or feel immediately in a workable and pragmatic form - this can be seen as chi.
None of what I have just said detracts from chi being a 'real' or 'fake' thing. It works for some as a way to learn skills and not for others. However, I do feel that if you need to break a 'glass ceiling' in your power delivery (for example) doing an internal MA (with a good instructor - like any MA) can be a huge help. -
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Re: Stirring the pot
Thu, October 11, 2007 - 9:22 AMExcellent post Justin. I understand where your coming from a bit better now
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