Dim Mak

topic posted Sun, March 13, 2005 - 12:37 PM by 
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Dim Mak is known as "Death Touch" you are all probably familiar with it so I'll let someone else expound on it. Anyway there's this story I read, who knows if it's true, but the story goes something like this:

An old master was sitting by himself having dinner one night. A younger guy was talking trash to him about how bad he was and the old guy ignored him. The younger guy became pissed that he couldn't get a rise out of him. When they younger guy finally got up and came over and interrupted the masters dinner, the master did a Dim Mak strike from his chair right on the guys heart and dropped him. The story goes that he did it just sufficiently enough to teach the young upstart a lesson and bruised the guys heart. Supposedly the guy never fully recovered. Anyone else hear this story?

Swaz
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  • Re: Dim Mak

    Sun, March 13, 2005 - 1:46 PM
    Not that particular story but similar ones.

    they aren't uncommon and given the nature of the technique I wouldn't be surprised the old master knew exactly what sort of damage he'd do.
  • Re: Dim Mak

    Mon, March 14, 2005 - 6:28 AM
    This also gose with the story of the baseball play who took a hit to the heart with the baseball in a game and die! So their must be some truth in it?
    • Re: Dim Mak

      Wed, March 16, 2005 - 5:20 PM
      Ever study the techniques behind Dim Mak?

      At least in China most of the really good fighters had a working knowledge of medicine motivated out of self preservation. Imagine what a western doctor could do if they wanted to learn how to best injure someone.

      As for the stories I'm talking about, one I knew the people involved first hand the others the reputations of the participants.

      Sort of like the old Dragnet episodes the stories are true but I'd need to change the names to protect the innocent.
    • Re: Dim Mak

      Wed, March 16, 2005 - 9:22 PM
      The thirty-eighth round decided all, the Russian felt the smart
      When Morrissey, with a dreadful blow, struck him on the heart
      A doctor, he was called for, to open up a vein
      He said it is quite useless, he will never fight again
    • Re: Dim Mak

      Thu, April 21, 2005 - 1:23 AM
      "This also gose with the story of the baseball play who took a hit to the heart with the baseball in a game and die! So their must be some truth in it?"

      That's an accidental timing thing. If the ball strikes the right spot hard enough at just the right timing between heart beats, something no can know in advance when, it can conceivably cause heart stoppage.

      But if a punch could do that, how come boxers aren't getting killed with body blows?
  • Re: Dim Mak

    Sat, March 19, 2005 - 7:19 AM
    I have tons of old stories/legends about Dim Mak in a French book co-authored by Henry Plée and Fujita Saiko, called "L'Art sublime et ultime des points vitaux" (also published in Italian, I believe)

    The authors claim that the source data for this book was compiled during WW2, when the Emperor of Japan called upon all the Japanese martial arts clans/families to reveal their deadliest secret techniques to help train the soldiers... and then to verify, the Emperor had those techniques tested on POWs.

    Another good publication is Erle Montaigue and Wally Simpson's Encyclopedia of Dim Mak, which shows how to undo the damage as well and references acupuncture / acupressure techniques.

    I emailed Montaigue once about his books, and he said the publisher omitted a page by error, and he emailed that page to me... he's got a webpage but I don't have the url handy
  • Re: Dim Mak

    Mon, March 21, 2005 - 5:47 AM
    No offense, but I think a lot of the stories and legends are just a bunch of bullshit.
    • Re: Dim Mak

      Mon, March 21, 2005 - 7:42 AM
      As with most of the Chinese, secrets. There is a lot of illusion tied in with most of the arts. Hypnosis is the most common of the explinations. Intention can also be "read" and you can hypnotize someone into believing they are frozen or being pushed from a distance. Often without knowing you have the ablity to do so. I have much experience with the latter.
      • Re: Dim Mak

        Mon, March 21, 2005 - 9:53 AM
        I think a lot of it is mistranslation... I have a pair of thin books on Dim Mak that seemed to have been translated word for word.

        Some of the techniques in there will, if hit, make you fall like a wooden chicken.
        :)
        • Re: Dim Mak

          Mon, March 21, 2005 - 10:18 AM
          I think youre dreaming.
          • Re: Dim Mak

            Thu, April 21, 2005 - 1:26 AM
            "I think youre dreaming."

            Xaos, I agree with you that the "death touch" stories are likely bullshit, but there are pressure point knockouts that do work. I've seen them demonstrated. I had one applied to me at about 1/5th normal power and I almost passed out.
        • Re: Dim Mak

          Mon, March 21, 2005 - 2:03 PM
          All pain is relative to experience. I know many points on the body that when hit can do a massive amount of damage and knockout. And yes even fall like a wooden chicken. But with familiarity these points become less and less useful. Consider the first time I was struck in the funny bone ligament. It knocked me down and I was almost unconscious. I was 7 and now all that point does is make my pinky twitch. Although some points can't be toughened up such as the groin and major nerves. I have yet to fall like a wooden chicken from anything since I was 12. Except for a subluxation or ruptured appendix. My pain threshold is rather high. Not good from a medical standpoint.
          • Re: Dim Mak

            Mon, March 21, 2005 - 2:09 PM
            By the way, most Dim Mak, Death Touch are not strikes. It is a grip, so when most people mention it they have no clue from the get go. The body can only experience so much pain and if many major meridians are hit at once they can cause total submission and even coma in extreme cases. Death to the weak? Possibly. But none of them are strikes. In the World Kobudo tournamemnt in 1995 a guy died after rupturing a few blood vessels in his neck, after he "won" the match he died in the hospital 2 days later. You call that a death strike? I do. Like an aeronautical engineer would say, "You give me enough speed, I'll make anything fly."
  • Unsu...
     

    Re: Dim Mak

    Fri, March 25, 2005 - 8:31 AM
    ...and the master found out that the calls were coming FROM INSIDE THE HOUSE!!!!!!

    That's how you end a good Dim Mak story.

    -b
    • Re: Dim Mak

      Tue, March 29, 2005 - 8:29 AM
      Our system of Jujutsu has a list of strikes/grips that derived partially from Dim Mak. On that list there are some delay death touch techniques and other things following the dim mak mythos. Being a skeptical sort I was a bit doubtful and of couurse it is a bit of a problem trying these things out even on one's own students, but then a friend of mine had a brilliant idea. We took the techniques to two western doctors and a couple of chinese medical practitioners to get their opinions on what might be happening (or not). One of the delay death touch techniques turned out to be a strike that had the potential for causing an abscsess which before modern medicine would have been fatal days later. Another technique was supposed to cause tuberculosis. Hm...well it turns out to be a point that weakens the ability of the lungs to resist infection and tuberculosis was rampant a hundred years ago in Japan. Some of the the techniques are just nerve clusters that when struck can send a person into shock. The point by the heart by the way is the same point that was once taught as the precordial thump in CPR and is basically a shock to the heart which can stop or start it. Hope this helps Mike
      • Re: Dim Mak

        Tue, March 29, 2005 - 10:18 AM
        I've heard a similar theory regarding the "delayed death touch" -- that it actually referred to untreatable (at the time) internal bleeding.
        • Re: Dim Mak

          Mon, December 3, 2007 - 8:17 PM
          Delayed Death strike is a strike that has a likely to cause a large blood clot. depending on where you strike it can cause a shutdown/malfunction of just about any organ chosen days later.
  • Re: Dim Mak

    Thu, March 31, 2005 - 3:00 AM
    Dim Mak means Deft Touch and comes the Martial Arts Shao Lin Chin Na and is a high level (3rd rank out only 3 ranks) attack that targets what is called Cavities, The actual meaning of Dim Mak is Cavity press in which once one understands pressure points and Chi flow in their opponent sufficiently enough they learn how to utilize attacks that focus on Chi Cavities. A Chi Cavity is a place that physiologically actually exist where the tiniest amount of air or blank space is created with in the body between organs, between sinew and bone etc. image a pin heads or smaller pocket of air in the body at certain intersections of joints and major mobility points. Chi normally circles though cavities and continues on moving though in Tui Na acupressure allot of physical ailments are found to be caused by chi being locked up and stagnated in cavities. Dim Mak or the cavity press strikes usually with open palm and forces chi to stagnate in the cavity on a massive overloaded level that also using pressure points completely blocks chi flow in the cavity that if not treated correctly over time can cause sever chronic damage and yes supposedly the masters new how to do this that if not treated eventually caused death.

    Sifu Ash Kennaz
    Ur-Jing -Do
    • Re: Dim Mak

      Thu, March 31, 2005 - 11:21 AM
      There shall be no titles of nobility.
      - Senior Chief Grand Master of the 3rd rank

      You ain't my Daddy.
  • Re: Dim Mak

    Fri, April 1, 2005 - 9:05 AM
    I don't know a lot about dim mak.But i did see a gung fu master make a guy piss him self at a martial arts expo years ago by stiking him in the thigh. i've tryed myself to find that spot. to see how it was done with no luck .So their maybe some truth in the dim mak.
  • Re: Dim Mak

    Thu, April 21, 2005 - 1:20 AM
    I don't believe this "death touch" stuff. My hapkido instructor told me he knew a way to give someone a stroke. How do you verify such claims without winding up in jail?

    Think about the tens of thousands of professional fights there are. These guys are hitting each other every possible way. How many end up in deaths? You'd think on occasion someone would randomly hit someone the exact right way to kill him, if that was possible. And on the rare occasion that someone dies, it's because he got hit on the head too many times. No mystical "death touch" applied exactly right.
    • Re: Dim Mak

      Mon, April 25, 2005 - 12:25 AM
      It seems you don't follow much of the deaths that have occured. I listed the one in 1995 Okinawa World Kobudo. (kick to the side of the neck) They happen all the time. The problem is they don't make much news, death isn't that big anymore. Search the internet for more news articles. Ask the County recorder to give you a list of people who died from blunt force trauma.
      • Re: Dim Mak

        Mon, April 25, 2005 - 2:42 PM
        strokes are the leading cause of death among old judoka. Applying chokes or trauma to the neck particularly past mid- life (45 and up) are believes to be the cause.
        • Re: Dim Mak

          Tue, September 13, 2005 - 7:40 AM
          I really enjoyed Montaigue and Simpson's Encyclopedia of Dim Mak, and so far it seems like it makes the most sense of the books I've read, though it does omit things like the time of day associated with each meridian (probably where the idea of the "delayed death touch" came from).

          In terms of professional fights, I think one explanation as to why there are so few pressure-point-type deaths is that different meridians run so close to each other in commonly-struck areas that a kick or punch (especially in big padded gloves) will usually smack a whole bunch of points at once, which if anything stabilizes chi because the system that carries it is being whomped uniformly rather than specifically targeted.

          I think a lot of the techniques are grabs and holds because the points really are tough to target in a real fight. Next time you take an elevator, stand back at a comfy fighting range and try to hit the elevator button with a full speed one-knuckle strike... you can imagine how much harder it is to hit a target half that size on the body of someone who's moving and hitting back.

          There are places where the points run thick enough--neck and jawline are among the best--that a strike with something pointy like a finger jab or knuckle is almost sture to strike a point of some kind, and if you can luck out and get the right angle of strike, and maybe even the time of day when the chi/blood of the corresponding organ is the most active, that you'll get in one of those strikes of occult legend. But I'm doubtful most of us can achieve the knowledge and the control to plan those strikes: for instance, good old Stomach 9 (Renying) is so close to Large Intestine 18 (Fu Tu) that I don't know anyone who could reliably target one or the other on a fast-moving opponent.

          All this makes it an inexact science at best, and if any of the stories I hear are true, the corresponding stories of people spending 50 years to master it don't sound so exaggerated. I had a Sifu once who supposedly knew Dim Mak (he never demonstrated or taught anyone, not that I know of, so I can't be sure) who was fond of saying that there are several instant-kill points located on the skull, and that they are easier to find using an axe... I think for him Dim Mak was just one more tool, and he didn't want to encourage going after esoteric knowledge to the exclusion of what should be obvious and practical. Or it could have been that he didn't know at all... either way, though, I'm not terribly concerned as a fighter with how Dim Mak works or doesn't work... I'm much too busy trying to learn to throw a Hadouken ;)
  • Re: Dim Mak

    Tue, September 13, 2005 - 12:12 PM
    I've heard a few different versions of the "Delayed Death Touch" story. That's one of the rumors of how Lee die so suddenly or was it poison... I think it is one of those folklore legends that has just been past through time. I'm sure if you strike someone hard enough you could injure the heart but I don't the story is real, it's just one of those nastalgic stories that surround the martial arts. Plus it makes the arts seem intreging to the new youngbloods on their path of discovery, that they could actually posess the power of the "Touch".
  • Unsu...
     

    Re: Dim Mak

    Fri, September 16, 2005 - 2:02 PM
    MY Dim Mak is unbeatable...

    Today, some fool dared questioned my deadly skills. Striking like a cobra, my index finger poked him gently in the chest, right above the floting rib....I should take the time to mention that THAT was my target...NOT as high as I can reach...besides...head kicks and punches are passe'.

    I'm sorry...got distracted...needless to say, with my delicate activation, I have set up deadly vibrations in his body. Even though it may have seemed to the untrained observer, that he beat my ass hard, made me eat a bug and then sent me running back home crying for my mommy without my pants (That was not Crying! I was using a circuler breathing exercize! And my Kiyah is the Norse Berserker battle cry of "Njot Einen Thor Vaess!!!" Meaning "Blood and Bones for Thor!" Since I pronouce it with the authentic Skaldic dialic, I'm sure it's easy to think that I'm yelling "Not in the Face...")

    I felt sorry for that poor musclebound sod, that's why I let him go...and let him think that he was the victor, but I can promise you that withing 60 to 70 years, the deadly vibrations and damage to his Chi that my Dim Mak inflicted will have him dead of heart failure...or a Stroke....or maybe Cancer....

    Beware my Dim Mak....
    • Re: Dim Mak

      Sat, December 1, 2007 - 3:54 PM
      funny post but seriously...

      The punch the original poster most likely refers to is a ninjitsu art that was featured on the (i think discovery channel) special 'Human Weapon' and it's actually just a well placed and perfectly timed side hammer punch to the lower part of the sternum, right at the diaphragm. If done exactly right and while the heart is drawing in blood and expanding the lower ribs compress and break under the pressure and this sends a shockwave through to the heart causing it to seize. The victim will freeze for a split second before dropping to the ground. It works like cpr (beating the chest to restart the heart) but instead causes a failure in the muscle, like a charlie horse but in your chest. It should be noted that there is no holding back with this blow. It is designed to kill and should never be used on a live human target and should be forbidden from any sort of sparring match. At best you'll happen to hit when the heart is compressed and the opponent will only suffer loss of breath, at worse you've just become a murderer.

      Another viable alternative is the disruption of the veagus nerve in the neck, which can cause drop in blood pressure and heart rate, or even seizing of the heart. Certain types of stimulation to this nerve cluster can also cause respiratory pains or failure, loss of consciousness, vomiting, and nerve ulcers which may have long term health problems associated.

      It's important that you understand what the martial arts are for when you learn these things. The martial arts are just that, arts. These should be used for the purpose of meditation and enlightenment and only be used for real combat (sparring is okay as long as you're being careful) when all other options are exhausted. To train oneself to their full potential the body and mind must be nurtured together. Intelligence without endurance and strength becomes compromised and strength without intelligence is worthless and pitiable.
      • Re: Dim Mak

        Sat, December 1, 2007 - 9:29 PM
        Only Kaiser Soze can do the Dim Mak correctly
        • Re: Dim Mak

          Sun, December 2, 2007 - 5:08 AM
          I use the ancient "Single Finger Dim Mak", with 1 finger gently placed on the trigger of my 1911, I can set up deadly vibrations in a persons body and give them a deadly case of kinetic energy poisoning ; ).

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